天不悔祸,谁为荼毒 | 一段与乌克兰码农的聊天(含文字整理)

这期文化土豆,主播益康糯米与在伦敦工作的乌克兰工程师 Ahmed 和他的华人伴侣 Lanyi 促膝而谈过去 10 日发生在乌克兰的战事,以及 Ahmed 家人的近况,还有他们的想法。这期节目几乎没有任何剪辑,为的就是呈现我们聊天的全貌。背景里的一些噪音来自于借住在主播家的小狗,后来我得知,Ahmed 的父母和妹妹,在三十多个小时逃离基辅的路途中,也带着他们家另外两个动物成员,一只小鸡娃娃和一只仓鼠。节目标题前两句出自「祭侄文稿」中的:”贼臣不救,孤城围逼。父陷子死,巢倾卵覆。天不悔祸,谁为荼毒?”,谨以表达主播自己在过去几天的情绪。

In this episode, the host discusses the Ukrainian crisis with a London based Ukrainian programmer Ahmed and his Chinese partner Lanyi. The following transcript is automatically generated by Otter.AI and Google Translate, and it contains errors.

为了帮助大家理解,我用 Otter.AI 和 谷歌翻译 整理了节目中的英文内容和对应的翻译(点击这里访问),肯定还会有很多不准确和完全翻译错误的地方,但是总比没有要强,请多包涵。

另外主播新的微博账号是 这个

Yifan
[Chinese]

Okay, so Ahmed so . Would you please introduce yourself to our listeners? I noticed your name is not Volodymyr? Or is not a it’s not a typical Slavic name.

好的,所以 Ahmed。 请您向我们的听众介绍一下自己好吗? 我注意到你的名字不是Volodymyr? 或者不是一个它不是一个典型的斯拉夫名字。

Ahmed
Yes, yes, sure. So I was born in Ukraine in Kiev. My father is originally from Syria. He moved to Ukraine during the Soviet Union time to study and international relationship as a lawyer. And that’s basically where he met my mother. And yeah, so that’s, that’s I was born. That’s why I was born in Kiev. By trade. I’m a software engineer. But I was I was also involved in a lot of other crafts that involved software engineering, like a design. I also had my own software company before. So you can say I’m an entrepreneur in a way. Yeah.

是的,是的,当然。 所以我出生在乌克兰的基辅。 我的父亲来自叙利亚。 他在苏联时期移居乌克兰,以律师的身份学习和国际关系。 那基本上就是他遇见我母亲的地方。 是的,我就是这样出生的。 这就是我出生在基辅的原因。 用于贸易。 我是一名软件工程师。 但我也参与了许多其他涉及软件工程的手艺,比如设计。 我之前也有自己的软件公司。 所以你可以说我在某种程度上是一个企业家。 是的。

Yifan
And do you mind telling us all in what year were you born?
你介意告诉我们你是哪一年出生的吗?

Ahmed
Yeah, I was born in 1995.
可以,我是1995年出生的。

Yifan
And what is your first language? And what’s your second language in third language?
你的第一语言是什么? 第三语言中的第二语言是什么?

Ahmed
So at home, we usually speak in Russian. But I learned Ukrainian when I was going to school. So I can freely speak in both languages with parents, I still talk in Russian. And that’s mainly because of, because of the Soviet Union time, it was almost discouraged to talk in Ukrainian. So most people were speaking Russian at the time. So my parents kind of still have this old habit. But in school, you when you when you study, you need to speak Ukrainian, or the textbooks were in Ukrainian. So that’s how I learned Ukrainian as well over time when I was going to school.
所以在家里,我们通常说俄语。 但是我在上学的时候学了乌克兰语。 所以我可以和父母自由地用两种语言说话,我仍然用俄语说话。 这主要是因为,由于苏联时代,几乎不鼓励用乌克兰语交谈。 所以当时大多数人都说俄语。 所以我的父母有点仍然有这个旧习惯。 但是在学校,你学习的时候,你需要说乌克兰语,或者教科书是乌克兰语的。 所以我在上学的时候也是这样学习乌克兰语的

Yifan
And how do you identify yourself? Do you think of yourself in nationality terms? Or?
你的民族认同是什么? 您是否从国籍角度定位自己?

Ahmed
Yeah, I mean, I would say I am Ukrainian.
是的,我的意思是,我会说我是乌克兰人。

Yifan
And when did you come to London?
你什么时候来伦敦的?

Ahmed
So first time I came here in 2018, I think we were going through acceleration programme for startups with my company. So yeah, we went through and multiple interviews in London. And then we passed to this acceleration programme, they selected 10 startups out of, I think, 1200 applications. And the programme is basically about introducing those selected startups to mentors, investors, clients from UK so they can build their own network here. And basically develop the product and raise the next round of funding for the companies.
所以我在 2018 年第一次来到这里时,我想我们正在与我的公司一起为初创公司进行加速计划。 所以,是的,我们在伦敦进行了多次采访。 然后我们通过这个加速计划,他们从我认为的 1200 个应用程序中选择了 10 个初创公司。 该计划基本上是将这些选定的初创公司介绍给来自英国的导师、投资者和客户,以便他们可以在这里建立自己的网络。 并基本开发产品并为公司筹集下一轮资金。

Yifan
Was it a big deal? Landing this opportunity for you?
这个机会对你来说很难得对吗?

Ahmed
Yeah, for sure. For sure. We so the startup accelerator is actually a network of accelerators across the world. And we tried to apply in many different locations, basically, to the the branch of this accelerators. And we were rejected, like times, after times, I think, at least three times we applied we were rejected. So when we apply to London, one a London accelerator, we kind of put all our effort to make sure we will pass through the selection process. And indeed, we succeeded.
耶,当然了。 当然。 我们因此启动加速器实际上是一个遍布全球的加速器网络。 我们试图在许多不同的地方应用,基本上,应用到这个加速器的分支上。 我们被拒绝了,我想,多次,多次,我们申请至少三次都被拒绝了。 因此,当我们向伦敦(伦敦加速器之一)提出申请时,我们会竭尽全力确保我们能够通过甄选过程。 事实上,我们成功了。

Yifan
And is there a big tech scene? A startup scene in Ukraine or in is in Kiev?
乌克兰或基辅的科技圈创业圈很大吗?

Ahmed
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. It’s, it’s extremely, I think it’s extremely vibrant, to be honest. And, like a lot of actually, a lot of technological companies are either originated in Ukraine, or they have some Ukrainian born founders. Like for example, WhatsApp was founded by a Ukrainian born founder, a grammerly. is enormous company, known around the world with 50% of the workforce is in Ukraine. Yes, I mean, there’s just big companies, but we also have a lot of smaller startups who still produce a lot of different products. So indeed, the scene is very vibrant in Ukraine in general.
是的。 耶,当然了。 老实说,它非常,我认为它非常有活力。 而且,实际上,很多科技公司要么起源于乌克兰,要么拥有一些乌克兰出生的创始人。 例如,WhatsApp 是由一位乌克兰出生的创始人创立的。 是一家规模庞大的公司,享誉全球,50% 的员工在乌克兰。 是的,我的意思是,只有大公司,但我们也有很多小型初创公司,它们仍然生产许多不同的产品。 因此,总体而言,乌克兰的场景非常活跃。

Yifan
I actually I don’t know if this is relevant. I know someone whose son was part of the story. The initial founding team of Grammarly and he’s Chinese and he was in charge of marketing. Which brings to you like he. Now I’m going to switch to Chinese for our audience.
我实际上我不知道这是否相关。 我认识一个人,他的儿子是故事的一部分。 Grammarly最初的创始团队,他是中国人,负责市场营销。 这给你带来了像他一样的东西。 现在我要为我们的观众切换到中文。

Lanyi
[In Chinese]
[中文内容]

Yifan
That’s very sweet. You probably understood the key word, the key word there. And let’s talk about this week. Back to you. I’ve met, I don’t know, I want to ask you, how are you feeling? How are you coping? And how how’s your family? Can you tell us about their status?
太可爱了。 你可能理解了关键词,那里的关键词。 让我们谈谈这周。 回到你身边。 我见过,不知道,我想问你,你感觉怎么样? 你是如何应对的? 你的家人还好吗? 你能告诉我们他们的状态吗?

Ahmed
Yeah, sure. I mean, it was a huge shock. I think for everyone. I remember how I discovered because usually every Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday, I’m going to the gym very early in the morning, like on six or something. And it was Thursday. So I was in a gym at the time. And I checked the news, suddenly, a lot of messages popped out in my messenger application. And I started checking the news and basically discovered that Russia pretty much like openly started open conflict and invaded Ukraine. Yeah, obviously, I wasn’t able to continue my exercise. So I just come back home.
好,当然。 我的意思是,这是一个巨大的冲击。 我想对每个人来说。 我记得我是如何发现的,因为通常每周二、周四和周六,我都会很早就去健身房,比如六点左右。 那是星期四。 所以当时我在健身房。 我查看了新闻,突然,我的Messenger应用程序中弹出了很多消息。 我开始查看新闻,基本上发现俄罗斯很像公开发起公开冲突并入侵乌克兰。 是的,很明显,我无法继续锻炼。 所以我只好回家了。

Yifan
What did you do? When did you call your parents? Or your message?
你做了什么? 你什么时候给父母打电话的? 还是你的留言?

Ahmed
Yeah, I immediately started writing everyone and asking, how are they doing? Are they safe? And not only my parents, but also a lot of friends? And just the people who I know, just start checking in how are they doing? Because So Russia started invasion with a lot of rockets strike. So they launched a lot of rockets across the whole country. So that was, that was very unexpected, and quite devastating. I would say right now my parents are safe. So they managed to leave the country. Just recently, a few days ago, at first, they stayed in Kiev. And they they had in shelters, because of the bombing and airstrikes. Then they moved to a village slightly further from Kiev, to stay together with my grandparents. And there was a lot of airstrikes there as well. So they were hiding in the basements and stuff. And eventually, we agreed that they need to leave because the situation was escalating, escalating so much and so quickly as well. And they took a train, it was around 25, maybe 30 hours trip. And they were not able to travel from the first train, because there were so many people trying to evacuate and leave the country. So they had to jump on the next train, instead of the one that we originally planned for. But thankfully, they managed to travel to the border safely cross the border, and right now they’re outside of country.
是的,我立即开始给每个人写信,问他们过得怎么样?他们安全吗?不仅是我的父母,还有很多朋友?只有我认识的人,开始检查他们的情况如何?因为所以俄罗斯以大量火箭弹袭击开始入侵。所以他们在全国发射了很多火箭。所以那是非常出乎意料的,而且非常具有破坏性。我想说现在我的父母很安全。所以他们设法离开了这个国家。就在最近,几天前,起初,他们还待在基辅。由于轰炸和空袭,他们在避难所中。然后他们搬到离基辅稍远的一个村庄,和我的祖父母住在一起。那里也发生了很多空袭。所以他们躲在地下室之类的地方。最终,我们同意他们需要离开,因为局势正在升级,升级如此之快也如此之快。他们乘火车,大约需要 25 小时,也许是 30 小时。而且他们无法从第一个火车出发,因为有太多人试图撤离并可离开。所以他们不得不跳上下一班火车,而不是我们最初计划的那趟。但值得庆幸的是,他们设法安全地越过边境前往边境,而现在他们在国外。

Yifan
So when when did they take their make their trip? That’s this week, Tuesday?
那么他们什么时候开始逃亡的呢? 那是本周,星期二?

Ahmed
I think it was Wednesday or something when they arrived on Friday.
我想他们星期五到达时是星期三或什么离开的。

Yifan
Yeah. So about maybe five days past. So can you talk about how they how they made this decision? Because they didn’t, they didn’t decide to leave on day one. So was it because of disbelief or wait and see, like, what’s the and how did they pack? And what was the expectation?
是的。 所以大约五天过去了。 那么你能谈谈他们是如何做出这个决定的吗? 因为他们没有,所以他们没有决定在第一天离开。 那么是因为怀疑还是观望,比如,他们是怎么打包的? 未来的打算是什么?

Ahmed
Yeah, I would say the main reason was because I mean, as a human, you don’t want to leave your home, you spent your whole life there, you developed the whole design department, choose the wallpapers and stuff, you don’t want to leave your home at all. So it was hard for them to even go from Kiev to this village. Even though key is under constant error rate alerts. So like every 10 minutes, every hour, you receive a notification that there is a new airstrike in coming in to hide in the shelter. So psychologically, I think that was challenging from that perspective. So because Russia started bringing more troops closer to the border. Since basically beginning of January, everyone in Ukraine, start packing the emergency back was all the documents with all the medical equipment and some warm clothes and stuff like that. So most of the people were prepared to leave. I think none of them truly believe that this will actually happen. Why not? It seems impossible to have such open conflict and invasion into country at this time, even even considering that Russia annexed Crimea, and they can occupied two cities on the east side of Ukraine. I think most people still believe that such conflict on such scale can be avoided. But, I mean, nevertheless, they still pack the bags and kind of prepared themselves, in case this happens. So when the time come, it was, at least from the preparation perspective, easier for them to leave, because they have everything packed already.
是的,我想说主要原因是因为我的意思是,作为一个人,你不想离开你的家,你在那里度过了你的一生,你开发了整个设计部门,选择了壁纸和东西,你不想’根本不想离开你的家。所以他们甚至很难从基辅到这个村庄。即使关键是在恒定的错误率警报下。因此,就像每隔 10 分钟,每隔一小时,你就会收到一条通知,说有新的空袭要进来躲在避难所里。所以在心理上,我认为从这个角度来看这是具有挑战性的。所以因为俄罗斯开始将更多的军队带到更靠近边境的地方。基本上从一月初开始,乌克兰的每个人都开始收拾紧急物品,包括所有的医疗设备和一些暖和的衣服之类的东西。所以大部分人都准备离开了。我认为他们中没有一个人真正相信这会真的发生。为什么不?即使考虑到俄罗斯吞并克里米亚,他们可以占领乌克兰东部的两个城市,此时似乎也不可能发生如此公开的冲突和入侵。我想大多数人仍然相信这种规模的冲突是可以避免的。但是,我的意思是,尽管如此,他们仍然收拾行李并做好准备,以防发生这种情况。所以到时候,至少从准备的角度来看,他们更容易离开,因为他们已经把所有东西都打包好了。

Yifan
Does your dad have? Is he still in touch with these relatives in Syria?
你爸有,还和这些在叙利亚的亲戚保持联系吗?

Ahmed
Yes. And the situation there is also not great, honestly, I mean, at this point, it’s even worse, because the conflict has been going for a longer time. So for example, they have access, at least the village where the relatives leave, they have access to electricity for only two hours per day. So that’s the only time they can access electricity, internet, water supply is very limited. So it’s quite, it’s not very easy conditions to live, really. So a lot of people from Syria also tried to search ways to find their future outside, outside of country and flee somehow.
是的。 而且那里的情况也不是很好,老实说,我的意思是,在这一点上,情况更糟,因为冲突已经持续了更长的时间。 因此,例如,他们可以使用,至少在亲戚离开的村庄,他们每天只能使用两个小时的电力。 所以那是他们唯一可以用电、上网的时间,供水非常有限。 所以说真的,生活条件不是很容易。 所以很多来自叙利亚的人也试图在国外寻找未来,在国外寻找未来,然后以某种方式逃离。

Yifan
Yeah. And where are your parents stay now?
是的。 你父母现在住在哪里?

Ahmed
Right now they’re in Slovakia.
现在他们在斯洛伐克。

Yifan
So what’s the plan?
那么计划是什么?

Ahmed
It’s honestly, it’s hard to talk about plans at the moment, considering the situation changes so fast. But our current basically plan is that we’re waiting for some time, up to two weeks, maybe less, to see how the situation develops. And if it’s, if we pass a point of no return, then they will go further in Europe, probably Germany, and start applying for like a refugee status doing the legal procedures and stuff like that.
老实说,考虑到形势变化如此之快,目前很难谈论计划。 但我们目前的基本计划是等待一段时间,最多两周,也许更短,看看情况如何发展。 如果是这样,如果我们通过了一个不归路,那么他们将在欧洲走得更远,可能是德国,并开始申请像难民身份一样的法律程序和类似的东西。

Yifan
So where are they staying now? in Czechoslovakia with friends?
那么他们现在住在哪里呢? 和朋友在捷克斯洛伐克?

Ahmed
No, it’s just Airbnb
不,这只是Airbnb,

Yifan
Airbnb. They arranged everything private today themselves.
爱彼迎。 自己安排的?

Ahmed
Yeah. Well, I mean, we were doing that together.
是的。 好吧,我的意思是,我们是一起做的。

Yifan
I see. And when you say the point of no return, what does that mean?
我知道了。 当你说不归路时,这是什么意思?

Ahmed
I think a lot of people still have hope that this, the further escalation can be avoided. And also positively speaking, if you look at the results, that Ukrainian army is how Ukrainian army pushing back Russians, it gives you some hope, because considering that Russia brought so many troops to Ukraine, it’s been 11 days, they still were not able to capture any major cities. Yeah, and Ukrainian army still pushing back despite being much smaller in numbers. So it gives it gives some hope. I mean, at least to me, it gives a lot of hope that we can push them further and then eventually switch from protecting the land to basically fighting back and take back what they took from us, eventually, those territories,
我想很多人还是抱有希望的,这样可以避免事态的进一步升级。 还有积极的说,如果你看结果,那乌克兰军队就是乌克兰军队击退俄罗斯人的方式,它给了你一些希望,因为考虑到俄罗斯向乌克兰带来了这么多军队,已经11天了,他们仍然无法 占领任何主要城市。 是的,尽管人数少得多,乌克兰军队仍在反击。 所以它给了它一些希望。 我的意思是,至少对我来说,这给了我们很大的希望,我们可以进一步推动他们,然后最终从保护土地转变为基本上反击并收回他们从我们那里夺走的东西,最终,那些领土,

Yifan
including Crimea.
包括克里米亚?

Ahmed
Well, I’m not talking about Crimea at the moment, but at least to the territories that they kind of Occupy at the moment after this invasion.
好吧,我现在不是在谈论克里米亚,而是至少在这次入侵之后他们占领的领土上。

Yifan
[Chinese]

Lanyi
[Chinese]

Yifan
So I’m not entirely clear. Do you think in? You know, let’s wait and see for in two weeks. Are you hoping for a defeat to Russian forces? Or are you hoping Russians are simply posturing now even you know, outrageous posture, but still they will come to a ceasefire and come to an agreement. So which kind of outcome are you? They are very different outcomes, right.
所以我不完全清楚你的想法。 你知道的,让我们拭目以待两周后。 您希望击败俄罗斯军队吗? 或者您是否希望俄罗斯人现在只是摆出姿势,即使您知道,令人发指的姿势,但他们仍然会停火并达成协议。 那你是哪种结局? 它们是非常不同的结果,对吧。

Ahmed
I mean, to be honest, I just hope for the their forces withdrawal basically, yeah, they should no longer stay in the Ukraine. And it can happen either through negotiations that are happening, there will be a third round of negotiations. I think, actually, today it’s happening. So Ukrainian side is talking about ceasefire, withdraw of the forces organising, or at least organising the green corridors, to be able to evacuate people from the most dangerous places at the moment that the one that suffered the most, after the bombing.
我的意思是,老实说,我只是希望他们的部队基本上撤出,是的,他们不应该再留在乌克兰。 它可以通过正在进行的谈判来实现,也可以进行第三轮谈判。 我认为,实际上,今天它正在发生。 因此,乌克兰方面正在谈论停火,撤出组织的部队,或者至少组织绿色走廊,以便能够在轰炸后最危险的地方撤离人们。

Yifan
What do you imagine how they were discussing in this ceasefire meetings? So the so called peace talks?
你想象他们在这次停火会议上是如何讨论的? 那么所谓的和谈呢?

Ahmed
I can’t even imagine to be honest, we don’t have much information about the details of the discussion. Usually those negotiations happens in different places. Also, for security reasons, we don’t get much information, how exactly the talk went. We only know the somewhat agreed results. So for example, after last negotiations, they agreed to provide the green corridors for a few cities. But unfortunately, the next day when Ukrainian side started evacuating people, Russian troops fired back at the cities. So they practically broke the agreement with during the negotiations. So I’m, I’m quite sceptical to be honest about those negotiations. I’m hopeful, but quite sceptical at the same time. Another I think, another point that can help resolve this conflict is that Russian forces, they’re quite demoralised in general, because they have no purpose in this in this fight. They just came to, to another nation and as a land, they have no purpose, while Ukrainian forces, not only the regular army, but everyone, right now everyone tries to participate into resistance. And they have a purpose because they protecting their own home, basically.
老实说,我什至无法想象,我们没有太多关于讨论细节的信息。通常这些谈判发生在不同的地方。此外,出于安全原因,我们没有得到太多信息,具体是如何进行的。我们只知道有些同意的结果。例如,经过上次谈判,他们同意为几个城市提供绿色走廊。但不幸的是,第二天,当乌克兰方面开始疏散人员时,俄罗斯军队向城市开火了。因此,他们在谈判期间实际上违反了协议。所以我对这些谈判是否诚实持怀疑态度。我充满希望,但同时也很怀疑。另一个我认为,可以帮助解决这场冲突的另一点是俄罗斯军队,他们总体上非常士气低落,因为他们在这场战斗中没有任何目的。他们只是来到另一个国家,作为一块土地,他们没有任何目的,而乌克兰军队,不仅是正规军,而且每个人,现在每个人都试图参与抵抗。他们有一个目的,因为他们基本上保护了自己的家园。

Yifan
I hope that’s true. And when you talk to your parents, are they more optimistic than you? Or are they more pessimistic? I’m just looking at generational difference if they lived under the Soviet Union, or not necessarily your parents, but the older generation?
我希望那是真的。 当你和你的父母交谈时,他们是否比你更乐观? 还是他们更悲观? 我只是在看他们是否生活在苏联时期的代际差异,或者不一定是您的父母,而是老一代?

Ahmed
Yeah, it’s hard for me to speak about that in general. But from my parent’s perspective, they’re less optimistic indeed. But I wouldn’t say it’s representative. Because, for example, just yesterday, or today, there were a lot of peaceful protests. So like people who were under Russian occupation, so Russian forces basically occupied a specific city, they just went on the streets with Ukrainian flags, stating that this specific city is Ukraine. It’s not, it’s not going to be part of Russia, it’s not going to be independent republic and something like that. They just stating that it’s part of Ukraine, and there are a lot of older people as well, in those protests. 是的,一般来说,我很难谈论这个。 但从我父母的角度来看,他们确实不那么乐观。 但我不会说它具有代表性。 因为,例如,就在昨天或今天,发生了很多和平抗议。 所以就像在俄罗斯占领下的人,所以俄罗斯军队基本上占领了一个特定的城市,他们只是带着乌克兰国旗走上街头,说这个特定的城市是乌克兰。 它不是,它不会成为俄罗斯的一部分,它不会成为独立的共和国之类的东西。 他们只是说它是乌克兰的一部分,在这些抗议活动中也有很多老年人。

Yifan
is it because for the older generation, they really don’t see Russian as that foreign. I know, that might be a problematic way to put this. But when I look at the videos, they go up, they you know, they talk down to the soldiers as from, from their parents perspective, you know, like, go home and what are you doing? We are Ukraine, but also, there seems to be a common cultural thing going on there to enable them to do that.
是不是因为对于老一辈来说,他们真的不认为俄罗斯是外国人。 我知道,这可能是一个有问题的方式。 但是当我看视频时,他们上去,他们你知道,他们对士兵说话,从他们父母的角度来看,你知道,比如,回家,你在做什么? 我们是乌克兰,但似乎有一种共同的文化正在发生,使他们能够做到这一点。

Ahmed
A lot of people from Ukraine have relatives in Russia and vice versa as well. That’s true. But despite that, It’s different cultures, we have a lot of things in common. But we are quite different as well. At the same time.
很多乌克兰人在俄罗斯都有亲戚,反之亦然。 确实如此。 但尽管如此,这是不同的文化,我们有很多共同点。 但我们也完全不同。 同时。

Lanyi
I think there is one interesting thing is that previously, Ahmed told me that his father, mainly watch Russian media and news, and just start starting from last month. He changed a lot. Yeah, yeah. Would you like to talk more about that?
我觉得有一件有趣的事,之前艾哈迈德告诉我,他父亲主要看俄罗斯媒体和新闻,从上个月才开始。 他改变了很多。 是啊是啊。 你想多谈谈吗?

Ahmed
Yeah. I think, in general, even this invasion United a lot of people and cleared their perspectives. Like, for example, my father was watching a lot of Russian media to learn about the news. But after the invasion, yeah, he clearly understood what’s going on that what is going on, in terms of the information that Russian media broadcast is not really aligned with the reality of the situation. So it showed him that all the news he watched before, doesn’t really represent the reality, the reality is quite different. Compared to what Russia media broadcasts.
是的。 我认为,总的来说,即使这次入侵联合了很多人,也清除了他们的观点。 例如,我父亲正在观看很多俄罗斯媒体以了解新闻。 但是在入侵之后,是的,他清楚地了解正在发生的事情,就俄罗斯媒体播放的信息而言,这与实际情况并不相符。 所以这让他知道,他之前看到的所有新闻,都不能真正代表现实,现实是完全不同的。 与俄罗斯媒体的报道相比。

Yifan
Yeah. I know that TV commentators and other people not directly suffering, they might analyse what’s going on and what Russia wants. And do you think about this? Do you? Do you try to get into the head of Putin? And what, what he wants and what he’s doing?
是的。 我知道电视评论员和其他没有直接受苦的人,他们可能会分析正在发生的事情以及俄罗斯想要什么。 你考虑过这个吗? 你? 你想进入普京的头脑吗? 什么,他想要什么,他在做什么?

Ahmed
Yes, I would say so. But I wouldn’t say it was like a conscious effort is just something I’m doing to to get more information about the situation. So for example, since the Thursday, Thursday, 24th, I remember it very clearly, it feels to me that half a year passed. It’s not a week, it feels like half a year passed. Because every day there is so much stuff happening, that it feels like ages already passed through that whole conflict. And during that time, I consumed so much a news and information, almost to a point that I consciously tried to overwhelm myself just to understand better, or to learn, what are the new cities, they’re bombing? And if I have relatives there, do I need to write them. So I’m trying to stay as much as possible. On top of everything that’s happening, just to just to make sure I’m, I’m closely following the conflict. And if it directly impacts, my friends, or my family, I can somehow react somehow, right? If they’re okay. Yeah, just checking.
是的,我会这么说。 但我不会说这就像有意识的努力只是我正在做的事情,以获取有关情况的更多信息。 所以比如说,从星期四,星期四,24号开始,我记得很清楚,感觉半年过去了。 这不是一个星期,感觉就像过去了半年。 因为每天都有很多事情发生,感觉就像整个冲突已经过去了好多年。 在那段时间里,我消耗了太多的新闻和信息,几乎到了有意识地试图压倒自己的地步,只是为了更好地理解,或者学习,他们正在轰炸的新城市是什么? 如果我在那里有亲戚,我需要写他们吗? 所以我尽量留下来。 除了正在发生的一切,只是为了确保我是,我正在密切关注冲突。 如果它直接影响到我的朋友或我的家人,我可以以某种方式做出反应,对吧? 如果他们没事。 是的,只是检查。

Yifan
This is a genuine personal question. Like, I’m curious, all the wars that Americans fought, that we watched on CNN, they had journalists imbedded with their troops, we kind of had like a front seat to what’s going on. It feels that this war, a lot of people are saying it’s been broadcast on social media. But then I feel what we see is the periphery is not really the battle ground scenes. And I think neither Russia nor Ukraine actually was showing very much, you know, the, how the missiles were launched. And, you know, like, so? I’m not sure we know what’s going on. I don’t know whether in Ukraine, you get more information or what?
这是一个真正的个人问题。 就像,我很好奇,美国人打过的所有战争,我们在 CNN 上看到的,他们的部队里有记者,我们有点像前面的座位,了解正在发生的事情。 感觉这场战争,很多人都说在社交媒体上播出了。 但后来我觉得我们看到的是外围并不是真正的战场场景。 而且我认为俄罗斯和乌克兰实际上都没有表现出很多,你知道,导弹是如何发射的。 而且,你知道,就像,所以? 我不确定我们是否知道发生了什么事。 我不知道是否在乌克兰,您会获得更多信息还是什么?

Ahmed
Yeah, I would say in general, we are just the following the consequences. So like, after the fact when something happened. And the reason for that, from what I understand is that by showing the actions of Ukrainian forces in real time, you’re putting them on higher danger, because the Russian troops, they’re following the social media just the same way. So if somebody is broadcasting the real time, information, it’s a chance for Russian troops to either correct their shot, maybe they missed, maybe they need to rethink their strategy. So it’s extremely dangerous, I think, for Ukrainians to broadcast in real time, especially in social media. What exactly going on? So usually, news and updates are coming with two hours delay, on average.
是的,我会说一般来说,我们只是遵循后果。 就像,在事情发生之后。 其原因,据我了解,通过实时展示乌克兰军队的行动,你将他们置于更高的危险之中,因为俄罗斯军队,他们以同样的方式关注社交媒体。 因此,如果有人正在广播实时信息,这对俄罗斯军队来说是一个机会来纠正他们的射击,也许他们错过了,也许他们需要重新考虑他们的战略。 因此,我认为,乌克兰人进行实时广播是极其危险的,尤其是在社交媒体上。 到底发生了什么? 所以通常情况下,新闻和更新平均会延迟两个小时。

Yifan
If you go to Russo-Ukrainian war on Wikipedia, it’s not from 10 days ago, it’s from much earlier. Can you talk about how this war has changed you as a person and I guess Yeah, to start from there.
如果你在 Wikipedia 上查看俄乌战争,那不是 10 天前的事,而是更早的事。 你能谈谈这场战争如何改变了你作为一个人,我想是的,从那里开始。

Ahmed
Yeah, I would say in general, before 2014 2014 was the catalyst for myself. So before that, I was very passive follower. of political environment in general, I was not paying attention at all, I was mostly focusing on my work I was focusing on on new tech and stuff like that. But 2014 It was, it was a breaking moment almost since 2014, I was following the political scene, new reforms new policies very closely. Because during the 2014, we had this conflict between willingness of the country to join more European Union, pro European Union approach versus joining more Russian alliances, economically and politically and in general. And at that time, the whole Revolution of Dignity. That’s how we call it in Ukraine, started with regular students from the University, who went out on the main Independence Square in Kiev. And they were protesting against the joining the Russian economical Alliance. And our president at that time, who was very pro Russian, he decided to solve this little protest problem with brute force. So he basically sent a lot of skilled military and soldiers, they beat those students. And then the next day, the whole country know about that. And this event triggered a lot of people because they also were against the joining the Russian Alliance, and they were more pro European Union instead. So more and more people from the whole Ukraine gathered on this Independence Square. And they they they stated their terms is that they are staying on this independent square until the alliance is not no longer on the table. So they wanted to join the European Union instead, basically, and try to be more European leaning,
是的,我一般会说,在 2014 年之前,2014 年是我自己的催化剂。所以在那之前,我是一个非常被动的追随者。总的来说,我根本没有注意政治环境,我主要专注于我的工作,我专注于新技术之类的东西。但是 2014 年,几乎是从 2014 年开始的一个突破性时刻,我密切关注政坛,新改革新政策。因为在 2014 年期间,我们在国家加入更多欧盟、亲欧盟的方式与加入更多俄罗斯联盟之间存在冲突,无论是在经济上还是政治上以及总体上。那时,整个尊严革命。这就是我们在乌克兰的称呼,从大学的普通学生开始,他们在基辅的主要独立广场上出去。他们抗议加入俄罗斯经济联盟。而我们当时的总统,非常亲俄罗斯,他决定用蛮力解决这个小小的抗议问题。所以他基本上派出了很多技术娴熟的军人,他们打败了那些学生。然后第二天,整个国家都知道了。而这个事件引发了很多人,因为他们也反对加入俄罗斯联盟,他们反而更亲欧盟。于是越来越多的全乌克兰人聚集在这个独立广场上。他们说他们的条件是他们待在这个独立的广场上,直到联盟不再出现在桌面上。所以他们想加入欧盟,基本上,并尝试更倾向于欧洲,

Yifan
was there any data showing what percentage of the population is for EU and what percentage is pro Russian?
是否有任何数据显示欧盟人口的百分比以及亲俄罗斯的人口百分比?

Ahmed
It’s hard for me to remember numbers from that period. But there was enough people gathered on the street, that our president at the time decided to double down on a force. So he put the snipers who surrounded this, basically streets, they were shooting regular protesters, he started using more and more military solutions for protest. And at that time, I was I was in a university. And because this is such a big event, it’s not something that happens very frequently in Ukraine. It’s just got into everyone’s attention. And because the view of being more European binning was close to me as well, I wanted to support the protest, however I could. So my involvement was mostly in bringing some food and medicine, some more and close to protesters who stayed on this square indefinitely. So they were basically camping there, until our president at the time refused, joining the Russian Alliance. And this whole story ended in a way that eventually our pro Russian President flee the country. And he flee the country to Russia. And Russia basically used the weakest moment in Ukraine to occupy the Crimea peninsula and sent their troops Russian backed troops to two cities in the eastern part of Ukraine, who was allegedly mostly pro Russian. So that was the beginning of this whole conflict that lasted for like eight years since 2014.
我很难记住那个时期的数字。但是街上聚集了足够多的人,我们当时的总统决定加倍投入力量。所以他把包围这里的狙击手,基本上是街道,他们在射击普通的抗议者,他开始使用越来越多的军事解决方案进行抗议。那个时候,我还在上大学。因为这是一个如此大的事件,它在乌克兰并不是经常发生的事情。刚刚引起了大家的注意。而且因为我也很接近欧洲分箱的观点,所以我想支持抗议,但我可以。所以我的参与主要是带一些食物和药品,还有更多,靠近无限期地留在这个广场上的抗议者。所以他们基本上在那里露营,直到我们当时的总统拒绝加入俄罗斯联盟。整个故事以最终我们的亲俄罗斯总统逃离该国的方式结束。他逃离这个国家到俄罗斯。而俄罗斯则基本上利用乌克兰最薄弱的时刻占领了克里米亚半岛,并派出俄罗斯支持的部队前往乌克兰东部的两个城市,据称这些城市大多是亲俄罗斯的。这就是自 2014 年以来持续了大约八年的整个冲突的开始。

Yifan
I totally sympathise with why your generation want to be part of one to be more European and less Russian. And I don’t know how how much putting is a factor, you know, like he’s not very attractive. And part of me also want to say just for the sake of argument, and also I believe, in Russia, and also in China, at least to Chinese spectators to this drama, would say, you are too naive to think you can get away with it. I mean, the the first argument is, you know, America wants to expand NATO, and its wants to fight Russia. But you know, America is not forcing Ukraine to do it. It’s probably Ukraine and other Eastern European countries that’s fighting to join the EU and NATO. Is there looking back a sense of naivete there, that leaving on the edge of great empires? It’s, it’s if you are not you don’t have the luxury to do that, would you? Would you say to that kind of viewpoint,
我完全同情为什么你们这一代人想要成为更多欧洲人而不是俄罗斯人的一部分。 而且我不知道多少推杆是一个因素,你知道,就像他不是很有吸引力一样。 而我的一部分也想说只是为了争论,而且我相信,在俄罗斯,也在中国,至少对中国观众看这部剧,会说,你太天真了,以为你可以逃脱 用它。 我的意思是,第一个论点是,你知道,美国想要扩大北约,它想要与俄罗斯作战。 但你知道,美国并没有强迫乌克兰这样做。 可能是乌克兰和其他东欧国家正在争取加入欧盟和北约。 回首过去是否有一种天真的感觉,那种离开大帝国的边缘? 是的,如果你不是,你就没有这样做的奢侈,对吗? 你会对说这种观点的人说什么呢?

Ahmed
I think it’s valid to say that we don’t have the luxury but I also think we don’t have other choice, because historically, Russia shown that they’re not ashamed of entering the sovereign countries. And the same scenarios happened in Georgia, in 2008, exactly the same scenario, they occupied part of Georgia, they sent their Russian backed troops. Eventually, they recognised those states as independent. And eventually they put even more military as a full fledged invasion of Georgia. And Georgia took a lot of years to recover from that. So that’s why right now, they’re trying to be extremely careful about participating in any sanctions Russia related, because they already experienced this. And I think another context for that would be that under Soviet Union, despite the stereotypical beliefs that everyone were united and happy, Russia was kinda discouraging as a cultures, Ukrainian culture, Georgia and culture, a lot of other cultures who were part of the Union, they were diminished. And pro Russian culture was more dominant, I would say. And that’s just historically doesn’t sit well with Ukrainian people. Because we want our own culture. We don’t want to we want to protect our own culture. Ukraine historically, been under many empires over many years. Russian Empire there was other empires who occupied there was a slavery problem and stuff like that. And during those whole years, the effort was to erase you Ukrainian culture and Ukraine as a nation. So that’s why I think it’s very personal topic as well for for many Ukrainians.
我认为说我们没有奢侈是有道理的,但我也认为我们别无选择,因为从历史上看,俄罗斯表明他们并不以进入主权国家为耻。同样的情况发生在格鲁吉亚,2008 年,完全相同的情况,他们占领了格鲁吉亚的一部分,他们派出了俄罗斯支持的军队。最终,他们承认这些国家是独立的。最终,他们将更多的军事力量作为对格鲁吉亚的全面入侵。乔治亚州花了很多年才从中恢复过来。所以这就是为什么现在,他们在参与任何与俄罗斯有关的制裁时都非常小心,因为他们已经经历过这种情况。我认为另一个背景是,在苏联时期,尽管人们普遍认为每个人都团结和快乐,但俄罗斯作为一种文化、乌克兰文化、格鲁吉亚和文化,以及许多其他属于联盟,他们被削弱了。我会说,亲俄罗斯文化更占主导地位。从历史上看,这对乌克兰人来说并不好。因为我们想要我们自己的文化。我们不想我们想保护我们自己的文化。从历史上看,乌克兰多年来一直处于许多帝国的统治之下。俄罗斯帝国有其他帝国占领那里,存在奴隶制问题之类的问题。在那整整几年里,努力是为了抹去你的乌克兰文化和乌克兰作为一个国家。所以这就是为什么我认为这对许多乌克兰人来说也是非常私人的话题。

Yifan
You said, back to my question, is it a luxury, but you wanted the luxury? So you think there is a way to have it?
你说,回到我的问题,这是一种奢侈,但你想要奢侈吗? 所以你认为有办法

Ahmed
Yes. Yes.
是的。 是的。

Yifan
And can you describe how that can be achieved?
你能描述一下如何实现吗?

Ahmed
That’s a good question.

From idealistic perspective, I would say, as soon as Russian internal politics change their neighbours neighbouring country will leave in more prosperity, I would say, there should, there should no longer be imperialistic view on things trying to. So that’s another narrative that putting is pushing is that Ukraine doesn’t really exist. It’s fake country, how he stated that Ukraine was gifted by different Russian emperors and stuff, which doesn’t make any sense historically. But that’s the narrative he’s pushing towards. So as long as this narrative no longer exists, I think there is a way for for countries to coexist together.
这是个好问题。

从理想主义的角度来看,我想说,一旦俄罗斯内部政治发生变化,他们的邻国就会变得更加繁荣,我想说,应该,不应该再有帝国主义的看法。 所以这是推杆推动的另一种说法是乌克兰并不真正存在。 这是一个假国家,他如何说乌克兰是由不同的俄罗斯皇帝和其他东西所赐予的,这在历史上没有任何意义。 但这就是他正在推动的叙述。 因此,只要这种叙述不再存在,我认为各国就有办法共存。

Yifan
Yeah. You’re in this international marriage. So you must have heard the reaction in Chinese social media and Chinese media and the Chinese state? Is it hard to understand why the Chinese reaction is so different from the from, say, the British public reaction?
是的。 你在这个国际婚姻中。 所以你一定听说过中国社交媒体、中国媒体和中国政府的反应吗? 很难理解为什么中国的反应与英国公众的反应如此不同吗?

Ahmed
I wouldn’t say it’s hard for me. I mean, I can understand why their reaction the way it is, I understand the relationship between China and Russia. And, yeah, there might be a reason. But at the same time, I also see that China doesn’t want to proactively support this conflict in terms of, for example, there was a un hearing regarding withdrawing Russian troops from Ukraine, and a lot of countries voted that they agree with that. And that’s what happened. And China just basically abstained, they they didn’t work. So they don’t want to show that they are against or pro this situation. And I think the reason for that being the harsh, economical sanctions that were imposed and other potential threats, I guess,
我不会说这对我来说很难。 我的意思是,我能理解他们为什么会有这样的反应,我理解中国和俄罗斯之间的关系。 而且,是的,可能是有原因的。 但同时我也看到,中国并不想主动支持这场冲突,比如就俄罗斯从乌克兰撤军的问题举行了联合国听证会,很多国家都投票赞成。 . 这就是发生的事情。 中国基本上投了弃权票,他们没有工作。 所以他们不想表明他们反对或支持这种情况。 我认为原因是实施了严厉的经济制裁和其他潜在威胁,我猜,

Yifan
right? Like, what’s our Shall we just do it in English? Because I don’t even look at the Chinese social media that much so but you take an interest rate,
正确的? 比如,我们应该用英语做什么? 因为我什至不怎么看中国社交媒体,但你拿利率,

Lanyi
yeah, my Weibo, and they share with him, like what people are we boss say, said about this thing, every day, basically.
是的,我的微博,他们和他分享,就像我们老板说的人,说这件事,基本上每天。

Yifan
So how would you characterise the dominant view in China?
那么,您如何描述中国的主流观点?

Lanyi
I partially understand because I think in the first few days, when I had a call with my mom, and he was kind of like pro Russia, because from from her point of view, and she just got all the information from the national media, and from her friends around around her.
我部分理解,因为我认为在最初几天,当我和妈妈通电话时,他有点像亲俄罗斯,因为从她的角度来看,她只是从国家媒体那里得到了所有信息, 以及她周围的朋友。

Yifan
but what could CCTV say? I mean, Ukraine, they couldn’t be saying Ukraine is invading Russia, could they?
但是央视能说什么呢? 我的意思是,乌克兰,他们不能说乌克兰正在入侵俄罗斯,对吗?

Lanyi
They out they said, Is Russia itself defence? It’s no way to go. But started what because Ukraine is going to join NATO, which will put a threat to China, to China. Yes, that’s the that’s the saying.
他们说,俄罗斯本身是自卫吗? 没办法了。 但开始是因为乌克兰将加入北约,这将对中国构成威胁。 是的,就是这么说的。

Yifan
So Russia is even doing China a favour. Yeah. Wow.
所以俄罗斯甚至是在帮中国一个忙。 是的。 哇。

Ahmed
The narrative about NATO is also quite interesting, because Ukraine as a country, applied to NATO multiple times, and we were rejected every time. So the idea of aggressive expansion just doesn’t exist. Of course, after 2014 More people were willing to, for Ukraine to join NATO, obviously, but that happens only because our territory were annexed in the first place. Who knows what would happen if Russia wouldn’t have annexed Crimea and those two cities on the east
关于北约的叙述也很有趣,因为乌克兰作为一个国家,多次向北约提出申请,每次都被拒绝。 所以激进扩张的想法根本不存在。 当然,在 2014 年之后,显然更多的人愿意让乌克兰加入北约,但这只是因为我们的领土一开始就被吞并了。 谁知道如果俄罗斯没有吞并克里米亚和东部的那两个城市会发生什么

Yifan
I even heard Putin once wanted to join NATO. And he was rejected. And anyway, why did you think the West didn’t react that strongly in 2014? And why? Why is this time different Russia expected? Probably similar reaction?
我什至听说普京曾经想加入北约。 而他被拒绝了。 无论如何,你为什么认为西方在 2014 年没有做出如此强烈的反应? 为什么? 为什么这次与俄罗斯不同? 大概是类似的反应?

Ahmed
Yeah, I think in 2014, Ukraine as a country was in a very weak spot, our army was practically non existent. We didn’t have any equipment, we didn’t have any experience, even our economy was falling down. We didn’t have any international, any good International and strong international relationship. So it was truly the weakest part in the history. But during the eight years, we managed to invest more in the army, we trained our troops, we built a better relationship with the Western countries, and practically made the whole countries much stronger, our country much stronger. So originally put in a stated in his his speech that they would take over Ukraine in three days. And this statement was based on the experience with Crimea, because basically, there was almost no fighting back. Ukrainian army was not able to fight back Russian army at the time. But today, we can fight back. And we are fighting back quite effectively, as well. And thanks to international connections we developed over those eight years, we finally were able to push Western countries forward to actually go on this step and impose stronger set sanctions. I think another another factor that helped. And that was just people around the world. Ukrainians who gathered on money it across the whole world in different cities, just to pressure their own democratic government to actually give a support to Ukraine, for example, Berlin, it was around 100,000 people, they went all on streets to support Ukraine, and Germany change their international policy in a long time, they would never send weapons to a country with active conflict. But now it’s just different context. So they actually went on this step on cutting down economical relationship with Russia not buying the gas, or reducing the amount and sending weapons to Ukraine, instead of just sending us helmets or something that’s not going to help.是的,我认为在 2014 年,乌克兰作为一个国家处于非常薄弱的​​位置,我们的军队几乎不存在。我们没有任何设备,我们没有任何经验,甚至我们的经济也在下滑。我们没有任何国际、任何良好的国际和强大的国际关系。所以它确实是历史上最薄弱的部分。但是在这八年里,我们在军队上投入了更多,我们训练了我们的军队,我们与西方国家建立了更好的关系,实际上使整个国家更加强大,我们的国家更加强大。所以最初在他的演讲中说他们将在三天内接管乌克兰。而这个说法是基于克里米亚的经验,因为基本上,几乎没有反击。乌克兰军队当时无法反击俄罗斯军队。但今天,我们可以反击。我们也在非常有效地进行反击。由于我们在这八年中建立的国际联系,我们终于能够推动西方国家真正迈出这一步并实施更强有力的制裁。我认为另一个有帮助的因素。那只是世界各地的人。乌克兰人在全世界不同城市聚集资金,只是为了向他们自己的民主政府施压,让他们真正支持乌克兰,例如柏林,大约有 10 万人,他们走上街头支持乌克兰,并且德国在很长一段时间内改变了他们的国际政策,他们永远不会向一个冲突活跃的国家提供武器。但现在只是不同的背景。所以他们实际上采取了这一步,削减与俄罗斯的经济关系,不购买天然气,或者减少数量并向乌克兰运送武器,而不是仅仅向我们发送头盔或其他无济于事的东西。

Yifan
it sounds like you are quite positive on the west reaction. So you what’s your view on no fly zone with and its consequence that that’s going to bring NATO into war with Russia? Yes, because you live in London, right. So this also affects people your friends hear me? Possibly?
听起来你对西方的反应很积极。 那么你对禁飞区及其后果是什么看法,这将使北约与俄罗斯开战? 是的,因为你住在伦敦,对。 所以这也会影响你的朋友听到我的声音吗? 可能吗?

Ahmed
Yeah, I would say that this war showed that European Union can be united, but NATO might come with a weaker response. So they are really afraid of, of showing that they want to participate in the conflict openly. And I saw numerous speeches from Putin, who basically threatened Western countries, as soon as they get involved into the conflict, there will be a huge consequences. And I think part of the this part of the threatening policy, what Russia is doing was setting their nuclear forces on high alert, for example. And I don’t know if NATO is ready to actively involve, but there are some other creative ways they can participate without participating directly. So for example, one of the same that will help Ukrainians is just planes who don’t have much planes who can protect the sky. So if NATO or some European countries send us those planes, it’s not going to be direct involvement, but at the same time, Ukrainian army will be able to protect the cities that are currently under constant rocket strikes and airstrikes.
是的,我会说这场战争表明欧盟可以团结起来,但北约可能会做出较弱的反应。所以他们真的很害怕,害怕表明他们想公开参与冲突。而且我看到普京多次发表讲话,基本上是威胁西方国家,一旦他们卷入冲突,后果将是巨大的。我认为这部分威胁政策的一部分,例如,俄罗斯正在做的是将其核力量置于高度戒备状态。我不知道北约是否准备好积极参与,但他们可以通过其他一些创造性的方式参与而不直接参与。因此,举个例子,对乌克兰人有帮助的同样之一就是那些没有太多可以保护天空的飞机的飞机。因此,如果北约或一些欧洲国家向我们派出这些飞机,这不会是直接参与,但与此同时,乌克兰军队将能够保护目前不断受到火箭弹袭击和空袭的城市。

Yifan
Have you thought about going to Ukraine to fight? Do you have friends who have enlisted?
你有没有想过去乌克兰打仗? 有报名的朋友吗?

Ahmed
Yes, actually, yeah, I have a few friends who joined either volunteering or they joined like, we call it a territory defence So basically just a local defence forces. And actually, it’s kind of funny situation because you can’t really get to those forces very easily because the queue is so big. So there are so many people willing to join that you can really join easily if you try right now. I yeah, I was certainly thinking about going back. And the feeling I have is that I’m not helping enough. And because people are living in shelters, they are bearing babies in underground station, because it’s not safe to go to the hospital and bear baby, the hospitals are destroyed, the kindergarten are destroyed, there’s constantly airstrikes is just terrifying stage to be in. So I feel like me being here in London, in a safe place is almost I’m almost ashamed of that, because I can’t really support them directly. Obviously, I’m trying to help other ways like donating to Army donating to all the charity funds and, and other kind of place however, I can spend my money, which is one way to help and spreading the information on social media. But I still feel it’s it’s not enough. It’s just not enough to not enough support.
是的,实际上,是的,我有几个朋友加入了志愿服务或他们加入,我们称之为领土防御所以基本上只是一个地方防御部队。实际上,这是一种有趣的情况,因为队列太大了,你不能很容易地接触到这些力量。所以有很多人愿意加入,如果你现在尝试,你真的很容易加入。我是的,我当然在考虑回去。我的感觉是我没有提供足够的帮助。而且因为人们住在避难所,他们在地铁站生孩子,因为去医院生孩子是不安全的,医院被毁,幼儿园被毁,不断的空袭只是一个可怕的阶段。所以我觉得我在伦敦,在一个安全的地方,我几乎为此感到羞耻,因为我不能真正直接支持他们。显然,我正在尝试帮助其他方式,例如向军队捐赠,向所有慈善基金捐赠,以及其他类型的地方,但是,我可以花钱,这是帮助和在社交媒体上传播信息的一种方式。但是我还是觉得还不够。没有足够的支持是不够的。

Yifan
Should we talk about China? I don’t know how and what is the are you upset about?
我们应该谈论中国吗? 我不知道,你是怎么生气的?

Yes,

Yifan
you are that? Yeah. So how so in the last, you know, nine days, what’s your emotional journey?
你是那个? 是的。 那么最后,你知道,九天,你的情感旅程是怎样的?

Lanyi
So I remember the first few days, I’m the same as if my wake up and see all those messages. Shocked? Especially there’s no first few days, you remember probably the media say to complete in different way. And basically some of my friends say, ask me, how’s my family? And at the same time, they they know, they have a friend is in Kiev, from Kiev and his family’s in Kiev. But same time, I think they are standing with what? What China is supporting. So it’s just completely different for me, and I’m quite shocked at that time. And yes, and then this is the evolve in an unexpected way. I think people start analysing this situation from international relationship. And saying it’s not Russian has no nowhere to go, but has to do that. The US is the the bad one. Yeah. Yeah, just to feel. Because I see social media on Weibo every day, and you see all the trading headline articles, what they prefer, that’s very obvious, especially you have comparison with what has sell or the aftermath tells me from Ukrainian media,
所以我记得最初的几天,我就像醒来看到所有这些消息一样。震惊?尤其是没有头几天,你可能记得媒体说要以不同的方式完成。基本上我的一些朋友会说,问我,我的家人好吗?同时,他们知道,他们有一个朋友在基辅,来自基辅和他的家人在基辅。但同时,我认为他们站在什么立场上?中国支持什么。所以这对我来说完全不同,当时我很震惊。是的,然后这是一种意想不到的演变。我认为人们从国际关系开始分析这种情况。说它不是俄罗斯人无处可去,但必须这样做。美国是坏人。是的。是的,只是感觉。因为我每天都在微博上看到社交媒体,你看到所有的交易头条文章,他们喜欢什么,这很明显,尤其是你和乌克兰媒体的卖或后果告诉我的比较,就像菲尔一样,是,我不能
[闹钟响]

Yifan
Yeah, please continue. I’m just going to hit the deliver Order button. And then when the food comes, we can stop.
是的,请继续。 我只是要点击交付订单按钮。 然后当食物来的时候,我们可以停下来。

Lanyi
Okay. Yeah, I just feel it’s, I don’t have too much things to do. And I keep thinking why this happened. So I talked to friends from different countries. And I was talking friend from originally from us and ask her and she almost cried because of that. But I don’t think my friend had a similar emotion, even if we’re close enough. And she just said, maybe everybody in your Europe or in us have some friends from Kiev. But in China, they feel Ukraine so far away. And I had I had this feeling and when I first met Archimate, and I I never know anybody from Ukraine, and I search on Chinese media and social media. There’s not a lot of information about Ukraine. So I basically learn from what has occurred from the people who might introduce me from because I’ve been to Ukraine twice to live and Kiev and just my observation and yeah, I feel most, you know, on tick tock there, most people are supporting Russian, and you just have just have done our to do because the information they can get, they can’t get access to the information that we have.
好的。是的,我只是觉得,我没有太多事情要做。我一直在想为什么会这样。所以我和来自不同国家的朋友交谈。我和我们原来的朋友聊天,问她,她差点哭了。但我不认为我的朋友有类似的情绪,即使我们足够亲密。她只是说,也许你们欧洲或我们的每个人都有一些来自基辅的朋友。但在中国,他们觉得乌克兰如此遥远。我有这种感觉,当我第一次见到 Archimate 时,我从来不认识任何来自乌克兰的人,我在中国媒体和社交媒体上搜索。关于乌克兰的信息并不多。所以我基本上从可能介绍我的人那里学到了什么,因为我去过乌克兰两次生活和基辅,只是我的观察,是的,我觉得最,你知道,在那里滴答作响,大多数人都是支持俄语,而您刚刚完成了我们的工作,因为他们可以获得的信息,他们无法访问我们拥有的信息。

Yifan
I have the feeling that Russians are probably not that against it as, as we hope,
我有一种感觉,俄罗斯人可能并不像我们希望的那样反对它,

Ahmed
I would say. So the last, the sociology, sociology reports I saw is that roughly 58% or 60% of population support the war. And it’s more among the older generation. So like, older generation, it’s 70% support and the younger generations 40% support. That’s the numbers I remember from from the report. So yeah, and I think that’s part of the hope was those economical sanctions and all the pressure from international communities that people inside the country can change something about the situation because put in doesn’t really listened to anybody. It doesn’t really seem to affect him sanctions after imposing those economical sanctions, despite their local currency, ruble, going down and basically going towards infinite inflation. He even doubled down on launching the rockets and destroying the infrastructure we have in Ukraine. And yeah, yeah.
我也这么认为。 我看到的最新民意调查报告是大约 58% 或 60% 的人口支持战争。 而且在老一代中更多。 就像,老一代有 70% 的支持,年轻一代有 40% 的支持。 这是我从报告中记得的数字。 所以,是的,我认为希望的一部分是那些经济制裁和来自国际社会的所有压力,即国内的人们可以改变一些情况,因为投入并没有真正听取任何人的意见。 在实施这些经济制裁之后,这似乎并没有真正影响他的制裁,尽管他们的当地货币、卢布、贬值并且基本上走向无限通胀。 他甚至加倍发射火箭并摧毁我们在乌克兰的基础设施。 是的,是的。

Yifan
I find it quite hard to ask questions, because to me, it’s such a black and white issue. I don’t I feel weird having to explain to people why it is wrong to kill and I’m not sure I can bridge the gap between us. And you know, what the what most people in, in Chinese media? Think? And do you think this is going to change your your life? If so, how?
我发现很难问问题,因为对我来说,这是一个非黑即白的问题。 不得不向人们解释为什么杀人是错误的,我不觉得奇怪,而且我不确定我能否弥合我们之间的鸿沟。 你知道,在中国媒体中,大多数人在做什么? 思考? 你认为这会改变你的生活吗? 如果是这样,怎么做?

Ahmed
I don’t think I will ever forget this experience, to be honest, that despite me not being there directly, it’s still indirectly affects me anyway. Yeah. Because I’m just constantly looking at those images of my home being destroyed. The place I grew up in is just no longer exists some of those places and you never know when you wake up next time. And will there be home to come back to you? Don’t you just don’t know. Yeah, it will, it will definitely stay in my memory forever. And I don’t know how it will affect me long term. I can’t really predict the future. But I think one of the effect I’m seeing right now is that Ukraine, as a country become more united than ever, like right now, everyone however they can participate to the resistance they do. They just help in any possible way. And it seems like everyone is united against that. Everyone is donating all the money they have they help him with the like food supply or transportation they just helping however they can just to protect their land, basically, because we have a purpose in this.
老实说,我认为我永远不会忘记这次经历,尽管我没有直接在那里,但无论如何它仍然间接地影响着我。是的。因为我只是不断地看着我家被毁的那些图像。我长大的地方已经不复存在了,你永远不知道下次什么时候醒来。会有家回到你身边吗?难道你只是不知道。是的,它会的,它一定会永远留在我的记忆中。而且我不知道它会如何长期影响我。我真的无法预测未来。但我认为我现在看到的影响之一是乌克兰作为一个国家变得比以往任何时候都更加团结,就像现在一样,每个人都可以参与他们所做的抵抗。他们只是以任何可能的方式提供帮助。似乎每个人都反对这一点。每个人都在捐出他们所有的钱,他们帮助他提供食物供应或运输,他们只是帮助他们,但他们可以保护他们的土地,基本上,因为我们有这个目的。

Yifan
Yeah. And do you know any hackers that hacking Russia?
是的。 你知道黑客入侵俄罗斯的任何黑客吗?

Ahmed
Yeah, sure. A lot of Ukrainian hackers but also intercom international community they just basically attacked the Russian government a website’s not on the attack and keep doing that steel. I saw report that somebody hacked the electricity charger in Russia. And basically there is a little screen there. And it says it’s a slob. Oh crania her oh am Slava and it translates to Glory to Ukraine, Glory to heroes. It’s our like, greetings resistance greeting of resistance. And they just hacked this random electricity charger with the same in the on the display.
好,当然。 很多乌克兰黑客,还有对讲国际社区,他们只是基本上攻击了俄罗斯政府的一个网站,而不是在攻击并继续做那个钢铁。 我看到报告说有人在俄罗斯入侵了充电器。 基本上那里有一个小屏幕。 它说这是一个懒鬼。 Oh crania her oh am Slava 翻译为乌克兰的荣耀,英雄的荣耀。 这是我们的喜欢,抵抗抵抗的问候。 他们只是在显示器上用相同的方式破解了这个随机充电器。

Yifan
So I have this feeling again, on social media, we have quite a lot of images, shorter videos that’s quite inspirational, and, you know, really cheer you up. That make me think, oh, you know what, you know, this is going well for Ukraine. But you know, Russia has nuclear weapon. None of this is going to affect that fact. And putting. If he wants to, he can win the war. It just the power is, is disproportional if he’s willing to just carpet bomb Kiev. What can you do?
所以我再次有这种感觉,在社交媒体上,我们有很多图片,较短的视频非常鼓舞人心,而且,你知道,真的让你振作起来。 这让我想,哦,你知道吗,你知道,这对乌克兰来说进展顺利。 但是你知道,俄罗斯有核武器。 这些都不会影响这一事实。 和放。 如果他愿意,他可以赢得战争。 如果他愿意地毯式轰炸基辅,这只是权力是不成比例的。 你能做什么?

Ahmed
I think, I think one important thing is that nations are built on, on stories on legends on the this kind of perception. Yeah. And right now, we have so many stories Ukraine went through that we can build a very strong nations out of it, if we can survive. Another thing is that I think despite the best effort, that putting can put in, he can basically destroy the country, he can destroy the land, he can destroy the infrastructure, he can never kill all the Ukrainians in the world, Ukraine will still basically be preserved in hearts of everyone. Yeah, of course, you can’t really do much with nuclear weapon. But I think if Putin actually go for it, we have much bigger problem, because there will be like an open nuclear disaster. And in this case, I’m sure other countries would need to participate. And who knows how it will end up for all of us it? It might not make sense in this case.
我认为,我认为一个重要的事情是,国家是建立在这种认知之上的,关于传说的故事。 是的。 而现在,我们有很多乌克兰经历的故事,如果我们能够生存,我们可以从中建立一个非常强大的国家。 另一件事是,我认为尽管尽了最大的努力,投入罐头,他基本上可以摧毁这个国家,他可以摧毁土地,他可以摧毁基础设施,他永远无法杀死世界上所有的乌克兰人,乌克兰仍然会 基本上都保存在了大家的心里。 是的,当然,你真的不能用核武器做很多事情。 但我认为,如果普京真的这么做了,我们的问题就会大得多,因为会有一场公开的核灾难。 在这种情况下,我相信其他国家也需要参与。 谁知道它会如何结束我们所有人呢? 在这种情况下可能没有意义。

Yifan
I think it might I mean, my family, not my parents, but my aunt is telling me that I should go to China or to Canada. She thinks UK is even dangerous. The whole of Europe history is in danger. I even Yeah, I don’t know.
我想我的意思可能是我的家人,而不是我的父母,但我的姑姑告诉我应该去中国或加拿大。 她认为英国甚至很危险。 整个欧洲历史都处于危险之中。 我什至是的,我不知道。

Ahmed
Like, I think everyone is in danger. When there is a nuclear war. I don’t think there is a place to hide, like you can go to Australia, you still will be affected. The Russian missiles can travel around the world, there is no place you can hide from nuclear missiles.
就像,我认为每个人都处于危险之中。 当发生核战争时。 我不认为有地方可以躲,就像你可以去澳大利亚一样,你仍然会受到影响。 俄罗斯的导弹可以环游世界,没有地方可以躲避核导弹。

Yifan
Would you say if you President accepted a partition of Ukraine? Would you? Do you think Ukrainian people will go along with it?
你会说如果你的总统接受乌克兰的分裂吗? 你会? 你认为乌克兰人会同意吗?

Ahmed
I don’t think our president will accept it. And I don’t think
我认为我们的总统不会接受。 而且我不认为

Yifan
is that a rational choice?
这是一个理性的选择吗?

Ahmed
I think it might not be irrational. But I think it’s necessary.
我认为这可能不是不合理的。 但我认为这是必要的。

Yifan
I think it’s better to have cool heads. What’s the objective to that now? Now, it’s a romantic thing to die for your country, which it is. But at the same time, Germany was partitioned for, you know, God knows how long and that probably avoided a lot of trouble for all of Europe. And in time, things might change.
我认为最好有冷静的头脑。 现在这样做的目的是什么? 现在,为你的国家而死是一件很浪漫的事情,事实就是如此。 但与此同时,德国被瓜分了,你知道,天知道多久,这可能为整个欧洲避免了很多麻烦。 随着时间的推移,事情可能会发生变化。

Ahmed
To be honest, I feel since the recent days, it’s very hard for me to think about the future. Now. I’m sinking in one day times timescale. I no longer plan for too far in the future. Because every day you don’t know how how things will go. Yeah, so I even try, try to avoid thinking about too far. I’m not for example, I’m not thinking, Well, if we win a war, how are we going to? How are we going to restore the infrastructure? We need some investment I mean, in the country, how are we going to attract investment after such a disastrous events, how we’re going to show that there is no risk for investments and stuff like that. I’m trying to avoid those thoughts even because right now, it almost feels like we just need to stop this attack. Because just regular people are dying. And but at the same time, you don’t want to give up your home. If intruder get into your home, and they suddenly start living in your bedroom, and they said well now it’s my bedroom. I don’t think anybody will give this up very easily. And just like that, there is no not much cases where you can just give up Okay, I agree it’s your bad bedroom stay there.
老实说,我觉得最近几天,我很难去想未来。现在。我沉没在一天的时间尺度上。我不再计划太远的未来。因为每天你都不知道事情会如何发展。是啊,所以我什至尝试,尽量避免想得太远。例如,我不是,我不是在想,好吧,如果我们赢了一场战争,我们该怎么办?我们将如何恢复基础设施?我们需要一些投资,我的意思是,在这个国家,在发生如此灾难性事件之后,我们将如何吸引投资,我们将如何证明投资没有风险之类的。我试图避免这些想法,即使现在,感觉就像我们只需要停止这次攻击。因为只有普通人正在死去。但同时,你也不想放弃你的家。如果入侵者进入你的家,他们突然开始住在你的卧室里,他们说现在是我的卧室。我认为没有人会轻易放弃这一点。就这样,你可以放弃的情况并不多,好吧,我同意这是你的糟糕卧室留在那里。

Yifan
That’s that’s actually quite a Western, I would say thing I think in China people to say have the bedroom. Like, what do you want the Chinese government to do? For sure they will be censoring this programme. So you might as well tell them
那实际上是相当西方的,我会说我认为在中国人们会说有卧室的东西。 比如,你希望中国政府做什么? 他们肯定会审查这个计划。 所以你不妨告诉他们

Ahmed
so from my perspective, stronger, even economical pressure from from China might bring put into some census because then there is nowhere to hide, like cutting off from Western banking system was one thing, but not being able to access Chinese banking system is you can really go anywhere. So but in this case, China as a country need to take aside and I think it’s quite unlikely. Yeah.
所以从我的角度来看,来自中国的更强大,甚至是经济压力可能会带来一些人口普查,因为那时无处可藏,就像切断西方银行系统是一回事,但无法进入中国银行系统是可以的 真的去任何地方。 所以,但在这种情况下,中国作为一个国家需要搁置一旁,我认为这不太可能。 是的。

Yifan
And what do you want to say to, to the Chinese people?
你想对中国人说什么?

Ahmed
I think it’s very easy to look at the war, and then feel that it’s so far away distant from you, you don’t really have any personal connection. So so it’s fine. It’s not that important. It’s not that critical. It’s far from me. But if you understand that there are regular people there with regular lives that have their family, they have their children, they have their jobs, and they are right now trying to protect their life not to die, basically, they just trying to survive. When you look at this conflict from the human perspective, when you understand that there are people there, you I believe that it will change your perspective on the conflict as a whole. Because it’s not about general country, with another general country, it’s about people who are currently losing their lives.
我觉得看战争很容易,然后觉得它离你太远了,你真的没有任何人脉。 所以没关系。 这没那么重要。 这不是那么关键。 它离我很远。 但是如果你明白那里有普通人,他们有他们的家庭,他们有他们的孩子,他们有他们的工作,他们现在正在努力保护自己的生命不死,基本上,他们只是在努力生存。 当你从人的角度看待这场冲突时,当你了解那里有人时,我相信它会改变你对整个冲突的看法。 因为这不是关于一般国家,而是关于另一个一般国家,它是关于目前正在失去生命的人。

Yifan
And what do you say to those people who say the Western sanction is making innocent Russians miserable. Their life saving might be gone, they might be out of a job.
你对那些说西方制裁让无辜的俄罗斯人痛苦的人说什么。 他们的救命之恩可能没了,他们可能失业了。

Ahmed
From my perspective, the problem of the whole regime that put in established has been going on for years, and there has been no major resistance, and even the resistance that’s been in the country was effectively destroyed. So Russian people are partially responsible for the madman to gain so much power, that he can be influenced by anyone. And my hope is that, even though regular Russian people might not be directly responsible, they are part of this story as well, because there is no other forces who can push put in out or somehow change the policy except for Russian people themselves. So I think even though it’s harsh, I think it’s necessary, just to show them that this war doesn’t really do well for yourself personally, as a Russian citizen. You see the economy is falling crumbling apart. You see that you can no longer use the MasterCard or Visa or pay for Spotify and stuff like that. And it should suggest you that there is a reason for it. And the reason for it because your country invaded another sovereign country with with no provocation from Ukraine side. So it was unprovoked conflict basically.
在我看来,建立的整个政权的问题已经持续了多年,没有出现大的阻力,甚至国内的阻力也被有效地摧毁了。因此,俄罗斯人民对疯子获得如此大的权力负有部分责任,以至于他可以受到任何人的影响。我的希望是,即使普通的俄罗斯人可能没有直接责任,他们也是这个故事的一部分,因为除了俄罗斯人自己之外,没有其他力量可以推动或以某种方式改变政策。所以我认为,尽管这很严厉,但我认为这是有必要的,只是为了向他们表明这场战争对你个人来说并没有真正的好处,作为一个俄罗斯公民。你看到经济正在崩溃。你看到你不能再使用万事达卡或维萨卡或支付 Spotify 和类似的东西。它应该告诉你这是有原因的。原因是贵国在没有乌克兰方面挑衅的情况下入侵了另一个主权国家。所以基本上是无端冲突。

Yifan
Do you think Ukraine has the military capability of send missiles to Russia?
你认为乌克兰有向俄罗斯发射导弹的军事能力吗?

Ahmed
No, we don’t. That’s the weakest part in in our army basically, is the Air Force. We, we are giving a very strong resistance on land. But we can’t protect very well, from incoming rockets and airstrikes and bombs.
不,我们没有。 那基本上是我军最薄弱的部分,就是空军。 我们,我们在陆地上进行了非常强大的抵抗。 但是我们不能很好地保护自己免受来袭的火箭、空袭和炸弹的伤害。 和

Yifan
And if you had planes from the West, do you support sending aeroplanes to bomb Russian cities?
如果你有来自西方的飞机,你是否支持派飞机轰炸俄罗斯城市?

Ahmed
No, of course not. Nobody in Ukraine wants that. That doesn’t make any sense. We don’t need Russia. We just don’t want to
不,当然不。 乌克兰没有人想要那样。 这没有任何意义。 我们不需要俄罗斯。 我们只是不想

Yifan
But in this war, in this fight.
但在这场战争中,在这场战斗中。

Ahmed
Why would we attack cities in another country? We don’t need that what we need is to take back what’s ours to take to take back our own land? We don’t we don’t want to gain more land from Russia.
我们为什么要攻击另一个国家的城市? 我们不需要我们需要的是收回我们的东西来收回我们自己的土地吗? 我们不想从俄罗斯获得更多土地。

Yifan
It’s your your husband to civilise to is quite polite. But I think that that puts you at a disadvantage, you know where you are in a war, if you’re not willing to, to hurt to hurt the other side. You just want to say get out, please.
对你老公客气是很有礼貌的。 但我认为这会让你处于不利地位,你知道你在战争中的位置,如果你不愿意,伤害到伤害对方。 你只想说出去,求你了。

Ahmed
I don’t think it puts us at a disadvantage. To be honest, I honestly believe that. We have no motivation and no interest of attacking brush directly. There is just doesn’t make any sense.
我不认为这让我们处于不利地位。 老实说,我真诚地相信这一点。 我们没有直接攻击刷子的动力和兴趣。 只是没有任何意义。

Yifan
Yeah. So are you are you going to see your parents?
是的。 那你会去看你的父母吗?

Ahmed
Yes, sure.
是的,当然。

Ahmed
I assume. Yeah, it’s either this upcoming week or maybe on weekend? Yeah, it was we still I mean, we still constantly in touch, like we have calls every day and writing each other frequently
我假设。 是的,是下周还是周末? 是的,我们仍然是我的意思,我们仍然经常保持联系,就像我们每天都有电话并互相写信一样

Yifan
Did they lived in central Kiev, do they have a house or apartment?
他们住在基辅市中心吗?他们有房子或公寓吗?

Ahmed
They have apartment. So Kiev is kind of separated by the Dniper River and we have left bank we have right bank so they lived on the left bank and city centres on the right bank. So they were slightly further from the cities. And you
他们有公寓。 所以基辅有点被第聂伯河隔开,我们有左岸,也有右岸,所以他们住在左岸,市中心在右岸。 所以他们离市中心稍微远了一点。 和你

Yifan
do you still have a room in that apartment?
你在那间公寓里还有房间吗?

Ahmed
Yeah, it’s used as a warehouse.
是的,它被用作仓库。

Yifan
Okay, and do you still have any personal belongings? Yes, yeah, I have some did they take care of your belongings?
好的,你还有私人物品吗? 是的,是的,我有一些他们照顾你的财物吗?

Ahmed
No, not really, to be honest, when they were evacuating it. It’s not. I mean, it’s not very good to take more stuff because people were prioritised. So your priority was to evacuate more people not from from the city.
不,不是真的,老实说,当他们疏散它时。 它不是。 我的意思是,拿更多的东西不是很好,因为人们被优先考虑。 所以你的首要任务是从城市疏散更多的人。

Yifan
But you know, I was having this fantasy of if I were you craning I were leaving would I booby trapped my flat and put landmine in my flat just to say fuck you to the people who came and I just had it no
但是你知道,我有这样的幻想,如果我是你,我会离开我的公寓,我会在我的公寓里放地雷,只是为了对来的人说操

Ahmed
but the problem is that we already like my parents and I already accepted the fact that apartment can be destroyed anytime because in Kharkiv for example city I think it’s around 400 kilometres from from TF towards eastern border. Yeah, they basically Russia is basically destroyed just the regular houses apartments. There was no military infrastructure there. There was no strategic forces hiding somewhere in those apartments just regular apartments. And yeah, now is just anxious. Basically, they just and then come back to if there’s an agreement.
但问题是我们已经喜欢我的父母了,我已经接受了公寓可以随时被摧毁的事实,因为在哈尔科夫市,我认为从 TF 到东部边境大约有 400 公里。 是的,他们基本上俄罗斯基本上被摧毁了只是普通的房屋公寓。 那里没有军事基础设施。 那些公寓里没有隐藏战略力量,只是普通的公寓。 是的,现在只是焦虑。 基本上,如果有协议,他们只是然后回来。

Yifan
So earlier we talking about partition What about Russian armies leave but putting remains on punished for the war crimes. But you have your country back. I know this is academic debate. It probably doesn’t make sense. But is it worth it? I don’t know. You don’t know. I don’t know. You want to see put in on trial.
所以早些时候我们谈到了分区俄罗斯军队离开但因战争罪而受到惩罚的情况。 但是你有你的国家回来了。 我知道这是学术辩论。 这可能没有意义。 但是这值得吗? 我不知道。 你不知道。 我不知道。 你想看到受审。

Ahmed
I just feel it’s it’s not fair. Like it’s just not fair because I read the report like two days or three days ago. 2000 Ukrainians civilians not military force. The 2000 Ukrainians died already in this conflict. Right now. It’s probably up to 4000. And it’s just not Fair those people did nothing wrong to to Russia did nothing wrong to their forces. Yeah, it’s just it just feels unfair.
我只是觉得这不公平。 好像这不公平,因为我在两天或三天前阅读了报告。 2000 乌克兰平民不是军事力量。 2000 名乌克兰人已经在这场冲突中丧生。 现在。 可能高达 4000 人。而且那些人对俄罗斯没有做错任何事,对他们的军队没有做错,这不公平。 是的,只是感觉不公平。

Yifan
Yeah. I want to say realistically No, no. No NATO for Ukraine for a while.
是的。 我想实事求是地说不,不。 乌克兰暂时没有北约。

Ahmed
Yeah, I would say so. I would say it’s unlikely
是的,我会这么说。 我会说这不太可能

Yifan
European Union.
欧盟?

Ahmed
So I think realistically, it’s also unlikely to happen very soon. Yeah. But at least because we have international momentum right now, we can go to this road of applying, like, for example, a few days ago, our president signed the application form to become a candidate to join the European Union. And this candidacy was reviewed by European Parliament and they accepted the candidacy. But the country can stay as a candidate for a really long time, it can be five years can be 10 years, you never know. But at least it’s a step in that direction is just pretty much as a symbol, or indication that we want to go to that road, eventually.
所以我认为实际上,它也不太可能很快发生。 是的。 但是至少因为我们现在有国际化的势头,我们可以走这条申请之路,比如前几天,我们的总统签署了加入欧盟的申请表。 并且这个候选资格经过了欧洲议会的审查,他们接受了候选资格。 但是这个国家可以作为候选人停留很长时间,可能是五年,也可能是十年,你永远不知道。 但至少这是朝着那个方向迈出的一步,这几乎只是一个象征,或者表明我们最终想要走那条路。

Yifan
So do you believe in progress?
所以你相信进步吗?

Ahmed
In general, yes. I hope right now, I am thinking from the perspective of all the ruins Ukraine endured at the moment that before we start talking about progress, we first need to rebuild what we had before that, yeah, we lost many regular airports. A lot of roads, destroyed, bridges, infrastructure is completely vanished. So without restoring what we had before, we can’t really move forward. So that’s kind of the first step. And the next step is growing from there.
一般来说,是的。 我希望现在,我从乌克兰目前遭受的所有废墟的角度思考,在我们开始谈论进步之前,我们首先需要重建我们之前拥有的东西,是的,我们失去了许多常规机场。 很多道路,被毁,桥梁,基础设施完全消失。 因此,如果不恢复我们以前拥有的东西,我们就无法真正前进。 所以这是第一步。 下一步就是从那里成长。

Yifan
But where we are already moving backwards, right, because things have been destroyed. And
但是我们已经在倒退,对,因为事情已经被摧毁了。 和

Ahmed
yeah, sure. It’s, I mean, it’s inevitable because because of the conflict,
好,当然。 这是,我的意思是,这是不可避免的,因为冲突,

Yifan
yeah. I just feel that they are we’re entering into a dark age. I know you feel sad already. Like, but yeah. I don’t know. I feel. Not I think maybe European Union and America, like basically will be like, a Cold War, and then it will be really unlucky for the people who’s on the dark side.
是的。 我只是觉得他们是我们正在进入一个黑暗的时代。 我知道你已经很难过。 喜欢,但是是的。 我不知道。 我觉得。 不是我认为也许欧盟和美国基本上会像冷战一样,然后对于那些处于黑暗面的人来说真的很不幸。

Yifan
Are you religious?
你信教吗?

Ahmed
No, not really.
不,不是。

Yifan
But so do you believe there’s evil and good?
但是你相信有善有恶吗?

Ahmed
Well, I wouldn’t characterise this like that.
好吧,我不会这样描述它。

Yifan
So you don’t say you don’t think Putin is evil?
所以你不是说你不认为普京是邪恶的吗?

Ahmed
No, I think he is. Yeah, I mean, from their perspective, yes, we can say
不,我认为他是。 是的,我的意思是,从这个角度来看,是的,我们可以说

Yifan
and do you think the people who you you know, they’re at least the Russian population who bear partial responsibility for this evil? Yeah, I don’t know. It’s not. It’s not fair for you to pass judgement on them. But yeah, Putin is evil. Agreed. Okay, it’s really difficult. Yeah. Maybe Maybe we should stop here. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much.
你认为你认识的人,他们至少是俄罗斯人民,对这个邪恶负有部分责任吗? 是的,我不知道。 它不是。 要求你对他们做出判断是不公平的。 但是,是的,普京是邪恶的。 同意。 好吧,真的很难。 是的。 也许也许我们应该在这里停下来。 是的。 是的。 太感谢了。

Transcribed by https://otter.ai & Google Translate

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